Second Foundation Group Read, Conclusion

This is it! The last of the group read for the Foundation trilogy. Once upon a time I felt very intimidated by Isaac Asimov. I have been cured of that after participating in these group reads during the Science Fiction Experience.

I really enjoyed these books a lot. They’ve introduced some very interesting ideas on government, control, free will and fate. There have also been some great discussions throughout January and February and I’m going to miss them.

As with the others, questions are in bold and my answers follow. There will be spoilers of course, and with that out of the way, let’s go!

1. Now that the trilogy is over, discuss your feelings on Asimov's portrayal of female characters?

In the end I did find I liked Asimov’s portrayal of female characters. More would have been nice but we got to see different personalities and ages, with motives both good and bad. And they were part of the story and not just there as eye candy.

2. After all the back and forth mind control of the first part of Second Foundation, what was your state of mind reading this second section of the book? Were you suspicious of everyone? Did you figure things out? Were you just going along for the ride?

Other than partly guessing correctly where the Second Foundation had been the whole time, I tried to keep an open mind and just go along for the ride, so certain revelations (which I'll mention later in Question #5) really surprised me. I was slightly suspicious of the old man and lady (sorry, don't have my library copy and I forgot their names!) that met Arkady on Kalgan and helped her get away to Trantor. I thought it a little convenient that they too were just happening to be on their way to Trantor and how easily they were able to get her off of Kalgan.

3. Throughout the three novels we were shown a couple of versions of Trantor. Which is more appealing to you? Which would you rather visit?

The version of Trantor Arkady got to see seems more appearling. It’s quiet, not so densely populated. That’s more my pace. But I would have liked to visit Trantor during Seldon’s time; just to see the hustle and bustle of an entire planet devoted to the administration of a galaxy wide empire.

4. How have your thoughts about Hari Seldon, his plan, and either or both Foundations changed, or not, during the course of these three novels?

I do think Seldon was doing something good to try and ease the troubles between the fall of the first Galactic Empire and the rise of the second. I thought he had a real grasp on people and their motives with his psychohistory. But when we discover in this book, that the Second Foundationers had the ability to affect people’s mind, then I began to doubt Seldon’s "all knowing-ness"; that it just came down, not to people acting on their own according to their nature, but because of Second Foundationers influencing them. From the way the book ended, it doesn't look like either Foundation changed. The First Foundationers think they've defeated the Second, but we know that is not the case so each Foundation will continue moving along as they always had.

5. What, if anything, surprised you in this last half of the book? How do you feel Second Foundation held up compared to the other two books in the trilogy?

The Pelleas and Arkady revelations surprised me! Second Foundation, the book, seemed more in line with the first, Foundation. A lot of talk and some tense situations. Not a whole lot of action like the second book.

6. Did any themes stand out for you in this series? What are you taking away from the experience of reading the Foundation trilogy?

Free will and what does that really mean? Is influencing people through mind control really the best course in order to establish this second Galactic Empire? (Sorry, for answering a question with more questions. It's a bad habit of mine. My husband hates it!)

Despite good intentions, the actions required to achieve them have not always been honorable. I wonder if it really will be for the good of the galaxy in the end. I hope so after all the turmoil.

I want to thank Carl of Stainless Steel Droppings for hosting the group read and everyone who read and commented. Below are links to all three group reads. These go to Stainless Steel Droppings site and below the post there are links posted by other bloggers who participated:

Foundation - Part 1/Conclusion

Foundation and Empire - Part 1/Conclusion

Second Foundation - Part 1/Conclusion

I think the second book, Foundation and Empire, is my favorite. It had a lot more excitement. There was the battle between the Foundation and the Galactic Empire, then later we have Bayta and Toran barely escaping just ahead of the Mule as he conquered each planet of the Foundation. And let’s not forget the revelation of the Mule and his powers!

As a whole it’s a great series of books I highly recommend. I had a great time and I hope everyone else did too.

Second Foundation Group Read, Part 1

The Science Fiction Experience is still going strong. I have continued with the group read of Isaac Asimov’s Foundation series, hosted by Stainless Steel Droppings.

Below are the questions (in bold) for the group read and my answers follow. There will be spoilers so beware if you haven’t read the book and would like to in the future. These books are a great read if you remain spoiler free. Now for a quick summary of the story so far:

In the first book of the series, Foundation, Hari Seldon predicted the fall of the Galactic Empire and a thirty thousand year period that would follow that would see the galaxy in the midst of barbarism. Instead of a thirty thousand year period of barbarism, he established two Foundations on each side of the galazy to help guide the galaxy to a Second Galactic Empire that would only take one thousand years. Men such as Salvor Hardin and Hober Mallow, guided the Foundation to success when threatened by stronger neighboring kingdoms to keep with Seldon’s Plan.

In the second book, Foundation and Empire, the Foundation was once again threatened but by the Galactic Empire as an ambitious general tried to conquer those kingdoms the Empire had lost hundreds of years ago. Once again these efforts failed and the Foundation survived. Then we were introduced to the Mule, a mutant who could manipulate emotions, an element Seldon’s Plan had not accounted for, who finally conquered the Foundation and the Galaxy.

We are now on the third book, Second Foundation, which continues the search for the Second Foundation by the Mule, who has sent out two men, Han Pritcher and Bail Channis, to assist. (On a side note: Han Pritcher/Han Solo. Bail Channis/Bail Organa. A Galactic Empire stretching across hundreds of planets. Hmmm…) The Mule is so close to discovering the location of the Second Foundation, but he seems to have met his match. Then (once again!) we jump several years to discover the Foundation is back on course and the Second Foundation may be involved more than we would have thought.

1. How have your perceptions of the Mule and his form of governing grown or changed, or not, after spending more time with him in this novel?

I don’t think my views have changed of the Mule. I was always rooting for him and we learn later in the book that his rule was a peaceful one, after he conquered the Foundation and after his entanglement with the Second Foundationers, which I think would have still been peaceful even without the Second Foundation intervening.

2. Having finally gotten a glimpse into the mysterious Second Foundation, what are your feelings/thoughts about this group and their methods (as revealed thus far)

And we questioned the Mule’s motives and actions! I find the Second Foundationers extremely sketchy, especially when we learn Channis was a spy of theirs and now we’ve learned something very interesting in the second half of the book, with the secret meeting between Pelleas Anthor, Dr. Darell, Jole Turbor, Dr. Elvett Semic and Homir Munn.

3. Has your understanding of the Seldon Plan changed at all with the revelations about the plan and the Second Foundationers near the end of this first part of our reading? Looking back does it alter any ideas you had about Seldon and his predictions?

“The laws of Psychohistory are statistical in nature and are rendered invalid if the actions of individual men are not random in nature. If a sizable group of human beings learned of key details of the Plan, their actions would be governed by that knowledge and would no longer be random in the meaning of the axioms of Psychohistory. In other words, they would no longer be perfectly predictable.”

I always felt it took an individual to make a crucial decision for the Foundation that kept with the Seldon Plan. We see that Seldon’s calculations are “dependant” on these random actions. But not I wonder if Hardin and Mallow’s actions were really random. We’re getting hints that the Second Foundation is infiltrating. So what if Seldon’s predictions only came true because these “random” actions were not so random? What if they worked because there was someone (or a group of people) secretly guiding things along but making certain these acts looked random? What if they were guiding Hardin and Mallow without their knowledge?

Then we get this, when Channis remembers the location of the Second Foundation: “Like Ebling Mis before him, he was conscious of only one vast, numbing surprise.”

What would surprise Channis and Mis so much? I can only think that it would be the true location of the Second Foundation being somewhere they least suspected because it was always said it was located on the other side of the galaxy. I think the Second Foundation was established on Terminus, along with the Foundation, in secret.

4. A simple one: How did you feel the first part of Second Foundation held up in comparison to the sections we've previously read?

It has the same flow and style. Not a whole lot of action as usual with a lot of talking and a lot of tension! Similar to the way the second half of Foundation and Empire ended, the first half of Second Foundation was quite tense. And we get resolutions to the tension without bloodshed which has usually been the standard throughout the series.

5. It is perhaps not surprising that Asimov's second important female character in the trilogy would be a direct descendent of the first. What do you think of young Arcadia "Arkady" Darell?

I like “Arkady” a lot. She’s smart and sassy and feels like a teenager. I remember when I was around the same age wanting to change my name to something more sophisticated so she definitely rang true. I’m looking forward to seeing what Asimov has in store for her and for the Foundation.

I have to say I’m glad I’ve participated in these group reads. This series has been a fun adventure. Return next week for the conclusion of the book and the series (and to see if I'm right about the Second Foundation)! And if you'd like to discuss Second Foundation, you can comment here or check out what others are saying here.

Foundation and Empire Group Read, Conclusion

Here we are, the conclusion of the group read for Foundation and Empire by Isaac Asimov, hosted by Stainless Steel Droppings. This is also part of the Science Fiction Experience which I’ve been participating in throughout January and on into February.

After a failed attempt by an ambitious general of the Galactic Empire, we jump ahead about a hundred years in the second half of Foundation and Empire. The Empire is no more and the Foundation has steadily grown but internally there are rumblings but none are greater than the Mule. The Foundation is once again threatened.

Below are the group read questions in bold and my answers follow. Beware, there will be spoilers!

1. While it didn't break new ground, Asimov did have a female character who played a major role in this second half of the book. What are your thoughts on how Asimov portrayed Bayta?

A little too domesticated at times but she was still interesting and I liked she was given an important role near the end. I have to comment on the scene where she grabbed Toran by the hair and they started this tumbling around thing. I guess it was meant to be playful but it was just awkward to me. But overall I liked her. She was kind and smart and you can see why Magnifico was attached to her.

2. Now that you know the Mule's identity, were you surprised or had you figured it out along the way? If you did figure it out, how did that affect your reading of the book?

Unfortunately, last week I was doing some research on Foundation and Empire. I warned myself not to read too much on the Wikipedia page but I ended up skimming over the part where it mentioned who the Mule was. I didn’t read it word for word but it was enough that I was expecting it. BUT, I loved the reveal and I loved the act Magnifico put on. He was pretty convincing!

3. In previous posts we discussed the role individuals seemed to have in the unfolding of Seldon's plan. How do you feel about the issue now that we've seen an individual derail Seldon's plans?

It still took an individual to carry out some kind of plan. Just not in Seldon’s way this time, which I found hilarious and awesome. This really made the whole story that much more interesting. We had certain individuals guiding things along, making sure Seldon’s vision was carried out and now we have the opposite side. I loved it. I guess the Foundation should not have been so dependent on Seldon and his psychohistory.

4. Did it surprise you in the end that the Mule was allowed to get away? Did Asimov make you feel any pity or empathy for the Mule, either as the clown and/or when you discovered he was the Mule?

Yes and yes. I was holding my breath as the Mule walked away almost sure Bayta would shoot since he hadn’t tampered with her feelings. I’m glad he was able to just walk away. I was hoping he would because of the empathy Asimov made me feel for the Mule, which may be the reason Bayta let him go. Part of the empathy came from the Mule’s story and the other part was the way he had been portrayed as the clown. Over all Asimov did a great job with Magnifico/Mule.

5. How do you feel this story compared to all the other stories that have made up the two Foundation novels we've read?

For me, the second part of this book was definitely the best and my favorite. The previous stories were all about strengthening the Foundation. This one was breaking it down; an intriguing balance that was done well and much more exciting for me. What can I say? I'm a fair weather fan.

6. What final thoughts do you have about Foundation and Empire?

This was very Empire Strikes Back (and I use this often since I don’t have any other examples to use, but now I do after reading this book!) when our heroes (Bayta/Toran/Foundation) are at their lowest. The Foundation is gone; the “bad guy” has gotten away with it and now the Second Foundation is threatened, if it can be found.

Honestly, I hope the Mule does find the Second Foundation and destroys it. I just don’t really see the Mule as a bad guy right now. And he really is just fulfilling Seldon’s plan. It’s just being done without the regular appearances of Seldon to pat the current leaders of the Foundation on the back and tell them what a good job everyone is doing. The Mule is just rebuilding the Galactic Empire a lot sooner than Seldon’s plan would have.

Now, the question is, will this blow up in the Mule’s face and what will the Second Foundation’s role be? Will they be able to stop the Mule or is he too powerful even for them?

I guess I’ll just have to find out in Second Foundation!

Foundation and Empire Group Read Discussion, Part 1

I’m still in the middle of the Science Fiction Experience and I decided to join along with the second group read, hosted by Stainless Steel Droppings, of Foundation and Empire by Isaac Asimov.

In the first book, Foundation, Hari Seldon predicted the slow collapse of the Galactic Empire and the years of barbarism that it would bring. Seldon proposed to establish the Foundation on two opposite ends of the galaxy. Their goal was to work on an encyclopedia to preserve the knowledge of the Empire. So instead of 30,000 years of barbarism, between the breakdown of the first Galactic Empire and the stronger second that would follow, the work of the Foundation would reduce that time to 1,000 years.

We saw in the first book the Foundation faced with 3 different crisis that threatened their lively hood. Each crisis was overcome with determination, and without resorting to violence, by two men, Salvor Hardin and Hober Mallow. But the challenges they faced were against fringe kingdoms, that had broken away from the Galactic Empire, each stronger than the Foundation, with strength in numbers and natural resources. But weak in terms of being out of reach from the core of the Galactic Empire and having lost all knowledge of nuclear power and how to apply it to their economy.

Now, in the second book, Foundation and Empire, the Galactic Empire is ready to reclaim those fringe kingdoms they lost three centuries ago. Commanding the fleet is an ambitious general, Bel Riose, who has his sights not only on the fringe kingdoms, but the Foundation itself.

Following are discussion questions and my answers. There will be spoilers so carry on at your own risk.

1. In the opening chapters of Foundation and Empire we get to see things from the Imperial side. What are your thoughts on this part of the book? Were you surprised to find parts of the Galactic Empire that still seemed to be thriving?

I was not surprised the Galactic Empire was still thriving. It was the planets on the fringes they lost control of. As quickly as they descended into their “barbarous” state, it didn’t seem like they affected the core of the Galactic Empire all that much.

2. The examination of psychohistory continues in this book. What are your thoughts about the statement that was made: "Seldon's laws help those who help themselves" in light of our previous discussions about Seldon, his predictions, and the interaction of the individuals that we are exposed to in the story?

In Foundation, it was individuals (Hardin, Mallow) who were helping themselves but also trying to help the Foundation. I’ve always been of the opinion that Seldon knew there would be individuals who would act on their own that would help steer the Foundation out of a crisis.

3. How do you feel about Devers, Barr and Bel Riose? Did you like this section of the book and/or these characters? Was there anything about their stories that stood out to you, entertained you, annoyed you?

I did like it, up until the war was over and Devers and Barr basically did nothing. That was a bit of a letdown for me. I was expecting them to have more impact. I thought they’d be important. They did give us the first taste of action in this book with their escape from Trantor.

4. Perhaps continuing from Question 2, do you agree or disagree, and what are your thoughts on, Barr's devotion to Seldon and his belief that the "dead hand of Seldon" was guiding the events that led up to Riose's undoing.

The Foundation was definitely in the middle of a crisis and although previous crisis were solved without bloodshed, this one was still resolved in a similar manner of playing people against each other. Seldon could not foresee events but I’m sure through psychohistory he knew it was a matter of these individuals stepping up and making a critical decision. But in this case we had paranoia at work, with the Emperor recalling Bel Riose and having him tried and executed. This turn of events ended up helping end a war the Foundation would not have been able to win.

5. Did you think I was lying to you when I said in previous conversations that there are more female characters in books 2 and 3, LOL, since we didn't get to Bayta until near the end of this portion of the read?

I was hoping you weren’t. And I’m glad we finally have a female character that has appeared in more than one scene.

6. We haven't spent much time with them yet, but talk about your initial impressions of Toran and Bayta.

I don’t know about these two yet. They look upon each other as if they just acquired something valuable. I get the feeling they are trying to give the impression that they only married for convenience; a very profitable arrangement that works in both their favors. But the looks they give each other might suggest deeper feelings. I’m not quite sure what to make of it yet.

I’m really enjoying this second book despite the fact we spent a good portion of the book with characters that ended up not doing very much. But it was with these characters we were introduced to some action and a wild escape from Trantor, the central seat of the Galactic Empire. Part one of this group read stopped with Bayta and Toran, newlyweds on vacation on Kalgan to discover who the Mule is. I’m intrigued because I want to know who the Mule is too so onward I go!

Foundation Group Read Discussion Part 2

Here we are, the last group read discussion for Foundation by Isaac Asimov. These questions cover Part 3, Chapter 4 to the end. Group read questions are in bold and my answers follow. There will be mild spoilers if you have not read the book.

Salvor Hardin was the first character in the book that we got to spend any significant time with. What are your thoughts on the grande finale of his plotting, scheming and maneuvering to get the Foundation through to the next Seldon crisis?

Seldon put a lot of faith in the next generation to carry out his plan. I understand why the book is called Foundation. Seldon built a strong foundation from the beginning in order to accomplish his vision. It seems wrong, all the scheming and plotting but it’s all done for the survival of the Foundation and to prevent war and so far the Foundation has been able to prosper and grow without fighting or being taken over by their stronger neighbors.

What are your thoughts on the way in which control/manipulation to achieve Foundation ends began to shift with The Traders?

Although it was all part of the grand scheme, it was also a natural progression as society begins to advance on its own. Without the Foundation's manipulation it would have happened though not as quickly as it has. And I like that it’s starting to steer away from the religious aspect of control over technology.

One of the interesting things about Seldon's psychohistory is how much one man can actually affect it. In Foundation we see characters like Hardin and Mallow as key figures for positioning things just right to work towards Seldon's later predictions. Do you see this as a contradiction to what Seldon said about psychohistory at the beginning of our story or part of an overall plan? Discuss.

Just as Seldon took initiative to set things in motion to establish the Foundation, I do believe he knew that there would be others like him who would understand his vision for the Foundation. And it would take these two extraordinary men, Hardin and Mallow, to set things in motion to accomplish that overall plan.

Did you see similarities or differences between the way in which Salvador Hardin and Hober Mallow operated and what are your thoughts about this final section of Foundation? Would you have been content as a reader back then with how everything played out?

Hardin and Mallow both had similar situations where the Foundation was threatened and with clever maneuvering they had to work their way out of it in mostly non-violent ways, the result being a stronger Foundation. The differences, from what I can tell, Hardin took control through a coup and turned the other kingdoms against each other, where Mallow did so proving his innocence during a trial, very similar to Seldon had to go through.

I enjoyed the way events played out so I think I would have been content if I had read this years ago too.

Has your concept/thoughts of what Seldon was trying to do changed at all since the book began?

Not really. I was questioning his motives to begin with, whether he truly was trying to establish the Foundation for the good of the Galactic Empire. I’m really leaning towards him establishing his own galaxy wide empire that would be built upon the foundation he established and he’s counting on his Foundation to not make the same mistakes as the Galactic Empire.

Any final thoughts on the story as a whole, its structure, what it did or did not accomplish, how it worked for you, etc?

I enjoyed it and I liked the reveal that Mallow had been set up and was able to prove it. I read the debate on the info dump in the conversations from last week’s group read discussion. It did get a bit wordy in that way near the end with the trial. After reading something like Zone One, which had little dialogue, I was nice to have the characters speaking to each other and events unfolding through their actions, instead of it all happening in their heads.

I’m glad I participated in this group read. So far with the Science Fiction Experience this is the only book I’ve enjoyed. I got about thirty pages into The Difference Engine and Count to a Trillion before giving up. A gratuitous boob grab and techno babble with some grammar mistakes (intentional or bad editing?) were the deal breakers with both. I just have to say that Foundation had just enough science and technology that it wasn’t overwhelming, political intrigue to make it interesting and it moved at a nice quick pace. And since I enjoyed Foundation I will be participating in the next group read coming up for Foundation and Empire by Isaac Asimov, the second book in the series.

Foundation Group Read Discussion Part 1

Here we go! The first group read discussion of Foundation by Isaac Asimov and the first post for the Science Fiction Experience. These are questions for the first half of the book, Part 1 through Part 3, Chapter 4. Remember there will be spoilers! Though at this point in the book they are minor. Below are the group read discussion questions in bold and my answers. Let's get started!

For the purpose of satisfying curiosity, is this your first time reading Foundation or have you read it before?

First time!

For those reading Foundation for the first time, what expectations did you have going in and has it met them or surprised you in any way?

I had no expectations. I hadn’t even done any research online about the story. I went in completely ignorant and willing to let it surprise or disappoint me.

I will say Asimov has always intimidated me. Most Sci-Fi books in general have always intimidated me. I usually stuck with the Star Wars EU since I was already familiar with the story of the Republic and the Empire. I had branched out slightly with The Forever War, Battlefield Earth and The Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy (a book I forgot to mention I had read) and enjoyed them but hadn’t moved beyond them. I always felt the technical side would go over my head or it would just be so technical I would not be able to connect with the characters.

What are your thoughts about the structure of the novel thus far? (I am referring to the brief glimpses of different parts of the history of the Foundation with big time gaps between events in the novel)

I like it. I find it interesting to see how the results of the events have shaped the future from one generation to the next and how much has changed.

What are your initial thoughts on the field of psychohistory?

Predicting the future through psychology is interesting but scary. I can see guessing future events based on the past may be possible and helpful to learn from our ancestors mistakes. But it could lead to someone actually manipulating things so it does happen, instead of letting history happen naturally. So you have to wonder, if Hari Seldon did not predict the fall of the Galactic Empire in the first place in order to establish the Foundation, would the Empire even fall? Did it let things deteriorate knowing it would reestablish itself in the future because Seldon predicted it?

What, if anything, is holding your interest thus far, what are you enjoying about Foundation?

Salvor Hardin I found fascinating; seeing him as a young man then thirty years later to see how he has changed. Also learning the true purpose of the Foundation and that there’s still more to be revealed. I also enjoy the political maneuvering and manipulation of the kingdoms that have broken away from the Galactic Empire.

What, if anything, are you not enjoying about Foundation?

So far I’m really enjoying it so I don’t have anything negative to say.

You may have covered this in answering the other questions, but if not, what are your thoughts/feelings about the Galactic Empire. Is it a practical thing to have a galaxy spanning government? Can you imagine such a thing and do you think it would work?

Ha, I keep thinking of Star Wars and how it never seemed to work, whether it was the Old and New Republic or the Empire. Even in our own history when you look at the British Empire and the U.S.S.R. I think it’s been proven that such a thing won’t work.

What are your thoughts on Hardin's creation of a religious system in which to house scientific ideas and technology while keeping the users of that science and technology in the dark?

This troubled me. It made me think of the Dark Ages, after the fall of the Roman Empire. To go from such enlightenment then to fall back onto superstitions beliefs ruled by religion is just unfortunate. But there must be a reason for it and for the Foundation, it was for their survival. I wonder how much longer it can go on for though, especially when space travel is still possible and was possible even before the Galactic Empire began to fall.

I am really enjoying Foundation so far. I find myself engaged with the characters even though they do not stick around for long as we jump thirty to fifty years after the Foundation has been established. Now I'm off to read what others thought of the first part. If you've read Foundation and would like to join in the discussion, share your thoughts here in the comments or see what others have are talking about here.